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John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.02.24 13:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
What is CCP's vision of Supercaps in the future? If I understand the statement of CCP Soundwave correctly
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=72743&p=2
CCP intends to nerf titans' tracking into oblivion so that Supercaps are only usefull for structure shooting, bridging and against capitals.
Here is the problem:
- Dreads can shoot structure for less money
- Capitals are extremly rarely used in fleet fights against subcaps since dreads can't kill BSs and Triage Carriers can't be remote repped so that no dreads or supercaps are needed to break their tank. There is no point to risk supercaps to kill a couple of carriers. Neither makes it much sense to risk your supercaps to hotdrop some dreads that try to siege something. A fleet of 100 subcaps can easily do it as well.
Consequence:
- Supercaps will simply become useless.
- Many people who have invested a lot of money and skillpoints will be pissed
- Fleet fights will become even bigger and laggy, even with TiDi
- Null space will become even more all about numbers which is simply stupid. With TiDi even the worst Logi wing can safe everyone as long as he knows where the broadcast button is. With TiDi people can reship infinitely since they have enough time to travel back.
A by far better solution for the problem would be to limit the mobility/ power projection of supercapitals. This will make them easier killable and less usefull in conflicts, but still something that can influence the outcome of a battle if they arrive in time (which is something a 60b ship should be able to do). |
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 13:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote:Triage carriers are useless?!?!?! - Pretty sure RnK would beg to differ, and normal carriers are pretty damm handy as well.
Also F&I is that way -----------> (since y'know supers are a feature and you are discussing an idea about them)
RnK? We are not talking about small- to medscale fights and supercaps would be useless is such fights as well.
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John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 13:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
-Supercaps won't become useless, they will just not be very good at killing subcaps.
Would you please explain this :D
What will they be usefull for? Structure shooting and bridging? Didn't I say exactly that? :D
Quote:
-The pure numbers game doesn't always favor the old entrenched alliances, but the supercap numbers game does. I'd rather play a game where a swarm of newbies can shake up the map over the current game.
How that? White Noise probably still has a shitload of supercaps and still they are losing to goons due to fail cascade. Raiden on the other hand is rather new in the region but has huge problems to defend themselve against goons without supercaps.
In order to gather a huge number of players you will have to give them something in return. Entrenched alliances can give them sanctums, new alliances can't do that.
Your arguments do not make sense when you look at the empirical facts. |
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 14:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kern Walzky wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kern Walzky wrote:
if you think you can win eve in drakes your mistaken... you should counter with titans/supercarriers/dreads and then bring drakes aswell... i cant belive you think sub-capitals should always win nomatter what..
Welcome to supercaps online, if you cannot fly one then you are useless and will just die. Sounds like a fun game. Get your dread m8t capitals is the counter m8t. i truely hope you have a dream in flying bigger more expensive in the future... you do know if drakes win they are next in ccp's nerf. :) so i want CCP to look into not making ships useless, but look at the bigger picture. I am. Have you noticed the lack of new alliances in 0.0? And I dont mean one of the old ones under a new name I mean like Test when they were new. People cannot make any inroads into 0.0 in the current situation because fights are unwinnable. There are no tactics or fleet comps to counter titans for them. The smaller 0.0 alliances are also suffering because again, no counter available for them. The only power in all of EVE that could field enough dreads to make the difference is the CFC and even then the few hundred dreads would not be expected to survive the fight. We are lucky in that we can come up with a counter, be it dreadswarm or just building more titans but for the vast bulk of EVE, they're ******.
How is CFC subcap blob different from that? So you are saying that Supers are the only reason why small alliances can't take space?
Do you really think that a small alliance could take a part of CFC space if CFC wouldn't use any Supercaps?
They coldn't due to lack of numbers!
So how does making supercaps useless solve this problem?
Why are huge entities like CFC or Team Tech able to gather gigantic fleets for every important fight?
Here are the answers:
- Mobility --> every ship is easily bridgeable within minutes within sov space
- Timers --> even if a small alliance manages to RF a system --> the defender has more then enough time bring 3 fleets
- Lack of destructable or lootable structures --> You cant destroy much without a timer
- Guerillia Tactics don't work in eve in sov fights because with JBs and Titanbridges/Jumpdrives everything is in range in eve, especially with TiDi.
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John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 10:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Tore Vest wrote:
Will they have a better chance against a 3k goon & co blob ?
While they aren't really 3k man blobs, baltec1 doesn't want to talk about what happens to smaller alliances versus the 500 man southern block fleets or the 1000 man drake fleets the CFC fields. Its called ignoring a vital part of the argument because it doesn't fit his defense. At least currently a modertate new sized alliance could focus on running incursions while building a super fleet, that would allow it to breach a 0.0 region and deal with a 1000 man blob in theory, baltec1 doesn't like this idea, he wants numbers to mean everything, and that, in turn, snuffs all new life out of 0.0. The blob never stopped the MC, BoB, NC, Dronelands, Goons, Test, Atlas, IRC, ASCN, Tri, Red Alliance, CO2, CVA andall of the others from losing a campain or even their entire existence. (Every single one of these have had the same thing about unstoppable blobs said about them in my time)
White Noise and NC had a shitload of (unnerfed) supers as well. It didn't safe them... so what exactly is your argument? |
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 10:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tore Vest wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Capital pilots are a minority and simply adding more caps means the huge bulk that cant fly them are reduced to nothing more than a meat sheild.
It also means that the big 4 will simply blob them up so that not only do they have the titans to wipe out anything a small alliance could bring but would also mean they wouldnt attack eachother. Result? The same stagnation we saw with the supercarriers for a year and a half before the NC folded only this time, nobody will be stupid enough to sell capitals to the enemy.
If we go with EAF however every alliance can take part, newer players are made important for a fleet which is good for them and we avoid our virsion of the coldwar stockpiling of nukes that will never get used for fear of getting nuked themselves. The other upside being that currently useless ships become wanted.
You keep talking about how bad titans are against small allianses.... but not talking about how bad a blob of goons & co are against the same ppl.... Just say it.... Supers are in your way for nullsec dominance  Because blobs of subcaps have never been unbeatable. If you knew your history you would know this.
How can one beat a subcap blob without having another subcap blob?
(Hint: Small alliances don't have subcap blobs) |
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 19:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thomas Abernathy wrote:sakurako wrote:baltec1 wrote:sakurako wrote:
wait are you trying to say that super fleet loged off, you know the unkillable fleet the over powered fleet had to log off cos it couldn't win.
this can't be it must be a lie why would they need to log off if they can't be killed when there is a group of them.
to aaa, rol and the others on that titan kill nice one guys
Supercarriers are not titans. and thanks to the log off fix they now have to either stay there and die or as many of these did, self destruct. and this topic is not on titans it is on all super capital as the subject states Supercap Reballancing Lots of supercaps died to subcaps last night, what's the issue?
Goons can't kill supercaps with subcaps, at least not on their own.
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John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 10:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Reilly Duvolle wrote:Yumi Sagara wrote:ILikeMarkets wrote:Wow... thats just... wow. Supercaps Online :) Indeed. Which should drive the point home to anyone with any sense at all. There is no way back to 2005. Sorry guys, that train left the station several years ago. Supers are here to stay. What CCP needs to do is develop the game based on that thruth. Any hope of balancing this rests with the will to expand the capital battlefield, more options on how to use capitals, counter capitals and handle capitals, not less. If not, supers will stay in the hands that currently have them, and it will be impossible/very very difficult to counter by anybody else. It will be impossible to fight the old guard of 0.0 in capital ships online. Its impossible right now,hence why CCP are going after the one thing causing it rather than inventing a load of new new capitals which will cause further balance issues and result in the vast bulk of ships being compleatly useless along with the bulk of players who do not fly capitals.
It is also impossible to fight the goon blob right now.
I agree that supercaps and especially titans need balancing. However, turning them into giant portable stargates is not the solution.
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John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 11:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:John Maynard Keynes wrote:
It is also impossible to fight the goon blob right now.
I agree that supercaps and especially titans need balancing. However, turning them into giant portable stargates is not the solution.
Subcap blobs are not invincible and never have been. There has been much bigger fleets in the past which have been beaten.
How? With bigger blobs? Or with a titan blob?
Oh and you seem to worry a lot about small alliances. Could you sir please tell us how a small alliance could successfufully take some CFC systems?
And BTW, supercap blobs are not invincible as well as it was proven recently.
Some hints:
- Jihad Dread Spam
- an Supercap fleet withough proper subcap support is easily beaten by a subcap blob
- with other supercaps if you have the balls to bring them
P.S: The idea with ewar frigs is not bad though as long as a single ewar frigs is not able to jam a titan infinitely (something a falcon can do with a subcap). Which means you would need like 10 ewar frigs to jam a titan effectively.
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John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 00:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
Andski wrote:John Maynard Keynes wrote:And BTW, supercap blobs are not invincible as well as it was proven recently.
Some hints:
- Jihad Dread Spam
- an Supercap fleet withough proper subcap support is easily beaten by a subcap blob
- with other supercaps if you have the balls to bring them
P.S: The idea with ewar frigs is not bad though as long as a single ewar frigs is not able to jam a titan infinitely (something a falcon can do with a subcap). Which means you would need like 10 ewar frigs to jam a titan effectively.
That's because supercarriers are not terribly effective at dealing with subcaps, especially sub-BS. They can hold a maximum of 35 fighters, without the ability to use other drones. Crucible balanced them - the days of a Nyx blob throwing hundreds of drones at everything are over. They are still highly effective against capitals, sov structures and stations, as they should be.
I am not against a dread buff. The only reason why moms are still being fielded in fights is to provide reps to titans.
Nerf Titan-tracking and supercaps will become effectively useless in fights and numbers >>> all |
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